Todd Friel from WretchedNetwork brings up some interesting scriptural insights as to why this “glory cloud” from Bethel Church in Redding, California is probably a false sign. I honestly had not even considered this angle until now.
For the record, I DO believe that God shows up supernaturally whenever and wherever He chooses. Supernatural signs and wonders did not stop with the book of Acts. So, why would He NOT show up at Bethel? How do I know this isn’t God?
Good Question.
From a practical perspective, it could come from the ventilation system. Yes, that’s a pretty weak argument, but you can’t rule out that possibility.
Not too long ago, photographs of “orbs” started to appear on the web, and people were just amazed … all too quick to believe that this just HAD to be a sign from God! The problem with this is you can’t find God manifesting as “orbs” in the Bible (why would He?) AND you can get the same effects on your photos if you have grains of dust on your camera lens.
There are also online pictures of streaks of light above people’s heads while they’re worshiping. But there are so many different colored lights and “effects” (strobes, flashes,etc) in these services that you really can’t get a credible (or believable) image to pass off as a “supernatural manifestation”.
I’m saying all this because believers who are eager to see God move can be extremely gullible. Usually the people distributing these photos and videos are extremely charismatic and excited, oftentimes deceived themselves. But we’re not called to just go along with every sign and wonder, in fact, we are to “test the spirits”.
So how do we know what is a “Manifestation from God” and what is just “our eyes playing tricks on us”?
That’s also a good question …. one I don’t have a complete answer for, but I DO have a starting point for you. Use the Word as your plumbline …. for everything! When you see or hear of a particular sign or wonder …. look in the Word for a similar event. How did God operate? How did the people respond? What did YOU see? How did YOU respond?
I’m pretty much going to side with Todd (and the Word) on this one. In the Bible, when the Glory of God showed UP, people went DOWN because His Presence was too much for them. They couldn’t stand in the middle of God’s Greatness.
Do we see that here? Nope.
Blessings & Peace,
Kevin Kleint
Email: kevin@honorofkings.org
Here is the link I mentioned….I can’t see my post here so it must have been lost. Don’t have the energy to rewrite it, but this article is excellent. Its by Derek Prince, from 1996. He wrote it after the Toronto Blessing went viral….he speaks in it about *mixture* which to me is the real problem. Its not that these people do not have truth, but it is mixed with quite jarring error, and swallowed whole by their followers.
http://www.wordconnect.org/page_background_article_dprince.php
Kevin, I’m with you on this one. The handling of sin (as in Todd Bentley) the general lack of reverence for the Word and for God’s holiness that seems apparent in many of the Bethelites really cause me to wonder…..If any of you have time, Derek Prince wrote e a piece on Deception just after the Toronto Blessing went viral. He died not too long after that as he was quite elderly. I will look for the link and post it here later if anyone is interested. He says that the issue is *mixture*…..and that mixture is unfailingly divisive. I have listened to BJ a fair bit, and he does say some good things, but he also often says things that I find jarringly *off* in the midst of good stuff. If we are not grounded in God’s word, we will take the whole thing in, and be harmed by our lack of discernment. I have distanced myself from all of it, based on the idea that I am not sure if I will be sharp enough to walk with all the mixture and come out unscathed by it. Its a lot of work to fish through it….and much of it really has an appeal, but to the flesh more often than not.
Amen to Kevin and to Steve. God just got done speaking to me about Thomas a few days ago.
After Thomas had his proof He said (John 20:28) “My Lord and My God” his revelation went further that the others. Why??? This was because of Thomas’ revelation in John 11:16. Jesus told them that Lazarus was really dead but for a purpose. Thomas said “then let us die also.” A disciple of Christ must first die to self to be of any value to the Kingdom. Isaiah 53 His Word is the Ultimate Authority. It has the First and the Last say in all matters. SO with that I leave you this… We see what we want to see. SO….Philippians 4:7-9
Amplified Bible (AMP)
Blessings in the Name of My King and Savior!
Unless you have been to Bethel and personally experienced this, you will probably believe falsely about it. You will also most likely believe that I am deceived because I have personally witnessed this and NO it cannot possibly come from the ventilation system, as there are sometimes no vents where this shows up. Not only that, but it remains in the air, circulating (for lack of better words to describe this) and is like gold. Pastor Johnson does not seek this sign and is in awe of God’s goodness when it shows up. He worships God, not the sign, and has always worshiped the Lord Jesus Christ. Hard hearts or discernment, you have to decide for yourself what your heart is all about. “Only an evil, adulterous generation would demand a miraculous sign…” or chase, seek and follow a sign, but Pastor Johnson does not seek this – it shows up. Signs and wonders SHOULD follow believers. To call a church the ‘church of smoke and mirrors’ makes me wonder about the person who is name-calling and throwing out accusations. We should also be discerning of what you write as well. I challenge you to go there yourself and experience this before passing judgments in the name of ‘discernment.’
You obviously didn’t read the blog surrounding the video OR you ignored what you read. I’ve never been against signs & wonders. In fact, I agree w/you that signs and wonders SHOULD follow believers.
You’re right, I’ve never been to Bethel, but I have spent extensive time in the prophetic movement and those types of churches (read the story). I know the “fruit” of these ministries and you can taste the fruit in the followers this movement produces. All “spiritual” with no knowledge of the Word (except their pet scriptures). They are evil and adulterous, seeking after a sign (I’ve met plenty). Othewise, why would they go to Bethel? Why don’t they just stay in their home churches?
Granted Todd Friel can be sarcastic, but that’s his “schtick”. That aside, he STILL brings up good points. I was merely comparing this videotaped “event” that happened at Bethel with what happened when the Glory showed up in the Word. The crowd at Bethel did not fall on their face … just a bunch of OOOOOO’s and AAAAAA’s. Sounds inconsistent with the God of the Word.
YOU need to make a choice … Signs and Wonders … or His Word … sounds like a no-brainer to me.
I don’t understand the statement – “YOU need to make a choice…signs and wonders…or His Word,” when the mention of signs and wonders is in His Word.” The part that bothers me is that you have resorted to name-calling a church “Smoke and Mirrors.” Have you spent time listening to the teachings. They are a church that activate believers into their walk, when a lot of them might remain stagnant. They encourage, build, exhort and so much more and I have had relatives and friends receive true healings because of their belief that we can do and should do the things that Jesus did and have His power to do so. I don’t want to argue with you but it is offensive to call a church what you called them. I’m glad they don’t stop what they’re doing, because of what you’ve written about them. Satan is the accuser of the brethren and statements that are name-calling and accusatory make me wonder about the fruit of the person doing so. Yes. We’re called to inspect the fruit – what kind of fruit are you putting forth when name-calling? I guess those who seek to follow and walk as Jesus walked should expect no less – they said things about Jesus that were false, too–actually calling Him satan. What are the works and the fruit that you’ve been called to do? You also accused (falsely) me of “obviously” not reading the blog surrounding the video. If there’s more than what’s on this page with the video, then that is a false accusation against me. I have read what you’ve written. If you agree with me about signs and wonders, than why, at the end of your comment to me, have you stated there must be a choice about them – either them or the Bible? Pastor Johnson has a very deep understanding of the Word of God. Dude – seriously, test for yourself – do not go on what others have and are saying and pass quick judgments. They KNOW and PREACH the Bible there. It seems that this stirs up something that is very uncomfortable for a lot of people and believers. It forces them to look at their own lives – are they doing the true works of Christ? It challenges a lot of people and their faith. They LOVE God at this church. Does it attract some phonies? Who knows – only God knows the true heart of man, but you will find Christ-centered people who love Jesus there and desire to grow in their faith and do His works out of a true heart of love. All I can say is go and see for yourself before passing judgment on here-say and quick videos. If Jesus was ridiculed, spoken falsely of, called names, whipped, hung on a cross – than we can expect no less if we choose to follow Him. If you’re walking in love and call yourself a believer, I believe that how and what you write would sound different. You say ‘you can taste the fruit of the followers…’ – really?? Have you tasted their fruit? I have witnessed healings, love, blessings, supportive community and fellowship and so much more from the believers. Is the church perfect? Is any church perfect? Look what is written about the churches in Revelation and they had first-hand experience with Jesus and His disciples. I understand your concerns, but I know that Bethel is no ‘smoke and mirrors’ type of church – it’s the real-deal! My concern is for someone who could be speaking falsely about something that God could have His hand on….are you bearing a false witness against this church?
Meant to say – if there’s not more than what’s on this page surrounding the video than you’ve falsely accused me. I did read this page but I just see you debating the issue about ‘falling down’ forwards or backwards….it sounds like you use a ‘fine toothed comb’ so to say, to examine others – do you use this same practice to examine yourself? Isn’t that what the pharisees did is they examined others greater than they examined themselves and their own actions? They thought they were more righteous and had a right to ‘judge’ others – but Jesus addresses this issue when he spoke about the ‘speck’ and the ‘log’ in our eyes. I’m not saying to not examine but it makes me wonder about your walk when you resort to calling a church a name…that IS an extreme judgement that you passed on this church.
Kevin, I apologize. I thought you were the one who did the video. A lot of what I was addressing was to the person who made the video and called Bethel the church of smoke and mirrors. I think that now I understand that you are in the process of discerning and attempting to get to the truth and heart of the controversy. Yet, I do believe that someone should actually go there before they pay judgment.
…Except that you did basically call Pastor Johnson a ‘wolf.’ That one I can’t and won’t apologize for holding into account the things that you wrote – apart from the maker of the video. Pastor Johnson preaches the Word of God, Worships the God of Jesus Christ, confesses and professes Jesus Christ and leads people to a deeper understanding of the Word and relationship with our Heavenly Father. Please, give me personal accounts and examples of what leads you to believe he is a ‘wolf.’
If you’re referring to what I said below, I said “reputed” wolf. I never came out and said he was a wolf. From your multiple and passionate responses, I can only assume that you’re a fan of his, so in your circles, he is probably never referred to as such. As far as firsthand experiences that would lead me to believe he is a wolf, I have none. I know that the way he handled the Bentley divorce/remarriage/restoration situation was abysmal. Most of the reason why I lean towards classifying him in with the other false prophetic “big boys” is because of 1) the company he keeps and 2) the people coming out of his ministry. I DO know first hand about the company he keeps, I was involved with that crowd for 7 years, that should be enough. As far as the people coming out of his ministry … little word (mostly pet scriptures) and lots of spirit (mostly not the Holy Spirit). I’m not saying that God doesn’t work in Bethel school … DON’T think that I just shut everything out and think they’re all going to hell. However, the priority of “experiential salvation” over the Word is a deadly combo, and I see that as fruit of this ministry.
reputed: reported or supposed to be such
This really concerns me.. I’ve never been to Bethel Church and not affliated with them in any way but I think we need to be really careful when we say something is not from God. At the end of the day we have our earthly opinions and the fruit is an important yardstick, but we need to be very careful in making judgements. God is God and he can do things that were not in the bible even that glorify himself and make his name great on this earth and draw people to Him. In fact I think Jesus idd some miracles that aren’t even recorded in the bible. All I ask is that we are 100% sure before we talk down upon any ministers of the gospel, ministries etc.
I’ve been a Christian over 25 years and are greatly humbled by God and how he would love us and give us an opportunity to know him. May he be forever praised! Be blessed
Hi Dan,
I can appreciate your stance on this issue, but you must understand that we are CALLED to discern and judge these things. I’m sure you know how many times the bible talks about being deceived in the Last Days, and Jesus Himself called us to discern the False prophets from the True.
As far as the signs and the wonders go … hey, I believe in healing and the gifts of the Spirit. I believe that God can show up (and DOES where His Name is glorified). However, if a sign or a wonder is occurring in a reputed wolf’s “church”, with no awe or reverence for the Glory of God (remember, when God shows up, people find themselves on the floor) I’m inclined to believe it’s false.
The reason the church is being overrun with wolves is because they have the sheep intimidated with fear. We’ve had the “judge not” mantra pounded in our head for years and years. And because no one will judge (or even question), things continue on as they always have.
Respectfully, I recommend that you read my 3 part series “Judge Not – Or Just Do It!”
Don’t Fear, my brother …
Kevin Kleint
http://www.honorofkings.org
Wow, Kevin….unless you have gone there and seen for yourself, how can you say the things you’re saying????? People do fall on the floor in His glory. The pastors glorify God and proclaim Jesus. Their fruit is healing, restoration, encouraging others onto good works and so much more. Who are you protecting? You have actually, literally called Pastor Johnson a ‘wolf.’ I have attended Bethel – he is no wolf. His teachings are anointed – there is no fear-based teaching that he puts forth – the fear is in the hearts of men that are afraid to step out in faith and do the works of Christ. They do not force anyone to do so – you might feel challenged and face your own fears but there is no intimidation that I’ve witnessed. Their fruit is amazing – it has changed the town of Redding in a very powerful way. Pastor Johnson encourages people to tithe to their own church, not Bethel. He doesn’t discourage giving but wants people to faithful to their own church if Bethel is not their home church. They do not lock the doors, force people to stay, nor manipulate. Pastor Johnson is just as stunned and in awe of the glory clouds as anyone else is and he praises and gives glory to God every single time. You’re the one that has to live with your judgements, whether they’re false or not, but you’ve definitely been warned enough on these comments.
Your “wolf” accusation was addressed above. Keep in mind …. the wolves were in “sheep’s” clothing, so there is no outward sign of their inward motives, according to Matthew. Also, further on, the people who were turned away were shocked that Jesus didn’t know them! They said, “Wait! Didn’t we do all these things in YOUR name?” but they were turned away. Why? Because they practiced lawlessness. Contrary to popular belief, this isn’t a general disregard for the law of the land – it’s much more involved. There is more to this topic, but I have to get back to work (I have a “regular” job)
“I think we need to be really careful when we say something is not from God.”
I think God can appreciate those of us who might become over cautious in our discernment. I also believe the responsible Christian will look at every one of these “signs” with doubt if they have read scripture and realize how often nearly every New Testament author wrote about false (false apostles/witnesses/christs/teachers/etc)
Better to doubt first and believe later than to believe first and never discern. Take note that Jesus did NOT rebuke Thomas. In fact Jesus offered Thomas proof.
John 20
24 One of the twelve disciples, Thomas (nicknamed the Twin), was not with the others when Jesus came. 25 They told him, “We have seen the Lord!”
25 But he replied, “I won’t believe it unless I see the nail wounds in his hands, put my fingers into them, and place my hand into the wound in his side.”
26 Eight days later the disciples were together again, and this time Thomas was with them. The doors were locked; but suddenly, as before, Jesus was standing among them. “Peace be with you,” he said. 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and look at my hands. Put your hand into the wound in my side. Don’t be faithless any longer. Believe!”
28 “My Lord and my God!” Thomas exclaimed.
29 Then Jesus told him, “You believe because you have seen me. Blessed are those who believe without seeing me.”
So what fruit is being produced at Bethel?
I have been seeking HIM,for years and have been in the tangible presence where I could no longer stand.I experienced His overwhelming greatness where I knew He was big and i was small.Yet i experienced the overwhelming fear of God ,a overwhelming sense of love and joy all at the same time.I quit seeking signs and the annointing years ago.I only seek Him for Him alone.I have heard angels singing as i worshipped him in song.I must say though that im talking from experience, and you folks are talking from what you have heard or read.So we see that experience can and will always trump what weve read.How many have been tranlated before the book of acts.yet phillip was.God isnt held or stopped by what he has done before.He has and still does new things everyday.Does the experience change people.Yes.but perhaps not immediatley.How can one know unless He has experienced it himself.So my brothers and sisters,Just like every knew move of God ,some will step right in and enjoy the blessings and others will drag theyre feet.holloring all along it aint God,as the move of God passes them by,and theyre left in their stagnant puddle of water.Just as they did when they riduculed the apostles and gamalail warned the sandhedren ,that if this is of God we may be fighting God Himself.Is this worth the cost,that you could be left behind because you cursed what God called blessed?My prayer is that God come visit you even as He did me unexpectently;and changed my life thirty-five years ago.
Hi Michael,
I’m not contesting that God moves in many ways, and I too have been in many of these services where God seems to move. When you’re there, and even looking back at them, it’s easy to automatically assume that it’s God, and not deception. It’s not until you judge the fruit (and yes, you are called to judge) that you realize that most of it is deception. God can, and does, touch people in the middle of these events (who knows, maybe you’re one of them?), but it is a select few. I’ve spent many years in the movement, read my testimony if you haven’t, and I can tell you from EXPERIENCE, that most of these people don’t know the Word and will follow any sign or wonder that makes them FEEL good.
As far as what you wrote above, I will let that stand it’s own:
We are called to use the Word of God (something we’ve read) as a plumbline. If what YOU have experienced, doesn’t line up with the Word of God, you didn’t experience HIM. I don’t care how good it felt. The Word TRUMPS our experience …. ALWAYS.
God exhalts His Word ABOVE His Name (his reputation, who He is) …. Who are we to question that?
I’ve been right in the center of the “New Thing” that God is allegedly doing. I’m telling you it’s deception. And I’ll pray for you, that you will acknowledge His Word in it’s fullness and the Spirit of Truth will come and cause you to fall in love with who HE is for who HE is, and not what you’ve created Him to be.
Oh, and the verse above was Psalm 138:2
Awesome!!! Thank you so much Kevin, it has been encouraging to me to see your testimony, and know that someone else has been their, and possibly has a better grasp and understands more of the error and deception taught. People can not fathom that the devil can allure, and it feels good, false peace, lying healings, miracles. They don’t remember that at least half of the signs Moses did, Pharaoh’s sorcerers mimicked, though God’s true power went where the enemy couldn’t perform, and God’s power is infinitely more powerful, they can’t understand, that in the antichrist spirit, which also is a false christ spirit, there is also a false spirit that mimics the true Holy Spirit, and false unholy tongues, false healings, false peace and the like. I have seen them up front. If the new age occult didn’t have anything to offer, if they didn’t have a type of healing , then no one would go to them. Same with prophecy, if false prophets couldn’t interpret dreams, or predict the future more then not, their lives could be in jeopardy.
Daniel 2:4 Then the Chaldeans spoke to the king in Aramaic,[a] “O king, live forever! Tell your servants the dream, and we will give the interpretation.” 5 The king answered and said to the Chaldeans, “My decision is firm: if you do not make known the dream to me, and its interpretation, you shall be cut in pieces, and your houses shall be made an ash heap. 6 However, if you tell the dream and its interpretation, you shall receive from me gifts, rewards, and great honor. Therefore tell me the dream and its interpretation.” 7 They answered again and said, “Let the king tell his servants the dream, and we will give its interpretation.” 8 The king answered and said, “I know for certain that you would gain time, because you see that my decision is firm: 9 if you do not make known the dream to me, there is only one decree for you! For you have agreed to speak lying and corrupt words before me till the time has changed. Therefore tell me the dream, and I shall know that you can give me its interpretation.”
I believe the all powerful lying signs and wonders in 2 Thess. is getting near enough to where we all have to have our focus on Jesus,and no other, and everything that includes in intimate prayer, and studying the word.
Thanks Teresa. Let’s keep in mind that there IS Real healing and miracles out there …. God IS working through people too!
It’s important, however, to be discerning and remember Jesus’ advice – “You will know them by their fruits”
It’s a simple equation …. Good Fruit = Good Tree = Good Seed (Word) …. Bad Fruit = Bad Tree = Bad Seed.
Kevin,
I was once in the midst of all this. (not at Bethel) Chasing the gold teeth, the gold dust, the “annointing”. The sin struggles while in this were horrendous. Do I still believe the Holy Spirit is alive and well today? Sure, I do. Do I believe that the Father still speaks to his children today? Sure I do. I know I went from a strict cessationist background and was so glad to finally know that God was alive and well that I accepted everything as God. We tested no spirits. We spent little time in the word. It was like one big high. I’m so thankful He opened my eyes, pulled me out and said, “Get in my word, daughter. Get in my word.” And so we’ve repented. And we’ve moved on. But not without leaving a trail of hurt along the way. All we can do is repent and go forward.
Thanks for all you do!!
Jesus warned us that many would come and if possible, deceive even the elect with lying signs and wonders Matt 24: 23 – 25. Believers are more likely to be deceived by a well known and trusted leader as they assume he has a closer relationship with God and fail to test these signs with the Word. Questions will usually mark them as trouble makers with the usual accusations most of us have experienced. Run from these evil deceivers with their gold dust, gems, orbs, oil and feathers for these things are exactly what Jesus was warning us about!! They have no biblical support but many warnings so we are without excuse. Good test for the falling down adherents, warn the congregation first, then remove the catchers- if God is knocking them down, he will also protect them from harm.(you would be surprised how
many would manage to stay upright) But the people love it so Bethel and BJ have a captive audience just like Todd Bentley who was a liar from the beginning but people Still think he is a servant of God.
People are comparing Bill Johnson to Todd Bentley, but there is no comparison. Pastor Bill has been a pastor for a very long time from a long line of pastors. He has been studying and preaching the Word for years. He and his wife gave of their own income, above and beyond the tithe and teach their children to honor God and people – like ordering something less expensive so you can have more to tip and other examples of honor. They are being blessed by their faithfulness, because God is always faithful to keep His promises and Word. If you knew the Johnsons personally, I honestly believe you would not be writing the things you are about them and their church. Your loss – I don’t think they will lose any sleep over this….it’s sad that you can cast judgment from afar. I would hold more credit to what you write if you had truly been there yourself, long enough to truly see the ‘fruit.’ I think if you went, you would never be the same. You would be so touched by the love of God. All I can say is truly experience this for yourself, firsthand. Having witnessed and experienced God’s presence, love, and Christian love through other believers there, I can testify that the fruit is good – but why should you take my word for it? I’ve only been there and witnessed firsthand their fruit. Then again, why should we believe you? I mean no offense, but why should we all take your word for it? You’ve never been there. In the Scripture about the wolf in sheep’s clothing – what is it that they want? To lead people away from God, Jesus and the truth, ultimately. Pastor Bill’s teachings are all about Jesus, God and from the Bible and living the Christian life.
I agree. There are MORE “SIGNS” lately than there are changed hearts, minds and lives. I like the way my pastor puts it: “What good does it do to flop around on the floor like a mullett, and get up and not change?”